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Post by Michael O'Brien on Mar 16, 2006 14:28:50 GMT
1st round is finished. "Thank you for all your latest contributions to the board. I must admit that the snow-troll grows on me as time goes on (I see him as being naturally furry rather than wearing furs). Pippin and Gandalf on Shadowfax is a vignette that I have always intended to make but for one reason or other have never done so. I also like Eorl and Felarof though it might be interesting to see Eorl on foot whispering to the beast in an attempt to win his confidence and friendship rather than riding him. I have left out he Last farewell as it really needs all the figures mentioned to do it justice. Also Feanor, much though I would love to make him, has to be omitted. The Silmarillion is absolutely off-limits to Mithril certainly for the foreseeable future and is the intellectual property of the Tolkien estate rather than Tolkien Enterprises." by Chris Tubb.
I think all our fans will be satisfied at the list of 22 options to vote for. Remember one vote per member for this round of voting. You can add your personal comment why you voted for that option as well. Vote ends March 27th. Vote for your favourite. On the 27th I will start a second vote on the 4 or 5 most popular suggestions. This will allow you to vote again to decide on the final winner. That vote ends April 3rd. Remember you can always resubmit an idea another month to try again. Next month is open to single figure suggestions ONLY. We will start taking suggestions on the 4th of April.
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Post by Hammershield on Mar 16, 2006 14:36:55 GMT
Encouraged by Chris I root for the abominable snow-troll.
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Post by ddaines on Mar 16, 2006 19:13:11 GMT
Here we go again, I will re-vote for my suggestion of the mounted Imrahil with Faramir (a concept sketch is in the gallery somewhere), but if folk want to vote for Gandalf and Aragorn with the sapling, I won't argue with that either.
David ;D
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Post by Stift on Mar 16, 2006 19:24:48 GMT
Hi, I'd like to have Charioteer of Rhun. A chance to get a rare eastern folk miniature. Vote for it!!!!! Yours, Stift
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Post by bombadil1963 on Mar 16, 2006 19:41:01 GMT
Oh yes, the quality of the suggestions is rising up like yeast from time to time! Not that the elder ones were bad of content! But the reasons and the descriptions are getting better. Our fellows are spending a lot of time for investigating quotes from the books and their remind. And a lot of fantasy by picturing the looks of the future minis. I´m filled up with proudness to be a part of this fellowship! I voted Narvi He has earned the honour to be created by Chris because he´s similar in skills (who to whom ). I think they must be soul-relatives. And Narvi would be the first fellowship-dwarf . . .
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Post by Axel on Mar 16, 2006 21:51:32 GMT
>And Narvi would be the first fellowship-dwarf . . .
If next month would not be a "single mini" suggestion, you could resuggest Bombur in all its splendor - if we do not get Narvi, he would make a perfect "first dwarf" :-)
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Post by mshartmann on Mar 17, 2006 2:43:29 GMT
Well, I don't know which I like best - I voted for my own suggestion - Pippin, Beregond, and the troll chief, but there are so many to choose. I may change my mind in round 2 (of course, my suggestion may not make it that far). Poor Pippin - he, like many of his kind, "always seem to get left out of the old lists."
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Post by khador on Mar 17, 2006 8:44:27 GMT
Very difficult choice !! They are suggestions for several months I think that it's sad to choose only one of them !!
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Post by twrich on Mar 17, 2006 8:59:49 GMT
With all of these great suggestions, I think this month we will see the value of two selection rounds! I have voted for Grimbold, Elfhelm, and Theodred. But I would be happy with any of these.
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Post by hsf62 on Mar 17, 2006 13:04:58 GMT
Just to many good choises! Very hard indeed. I'd like to see the snow troll, but the Charioteer of Rhun is very welcome too!
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Post by barliman on Mar 17, 2006 13:20:56 GMT
With such a superb collection of suggestions it's once again very hard to know which to vote for! As usual it looks very much as if voting for my own suggestion would be a complete waste of time (sorry, Eorl, maybe tomorrow, or tomorrow and tomorrow...), so for me the decision had to be between Elfhelm/Grimbold/Theodred; Pippin, Beregond and the troll; and Gothmog on a warg. In the end I decided to vote for Gothmog, simply because it'll be very interesting indeed to see what kind of creature Chris interprets Gothmog to be. The assumption that he should be on a warg means that whoever suggested him (with apologies, I can't remember who it was!) clearly envisaged him as an orc (doubtless influenced by Peter Jackson's movies), but JRRT himself, of course, never gives us any clues at all regarding his race. Some have suggested that as the Witchking's lieutenant and 2nd-in-c of the Army of Mordor he may in fact have been another Nazgul. But a Nazgul on a Warg? Hmmmm. Hence my curiosity to see how Chris would envisage him!
A question: would the Rhun charioteer be in a chariot? This may influence my final vote!
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Post by ddseuferer on Mar 17, 2006 17:34:35 GMT
I remember reading somewhere, can't remember where, that Gothmog wasn't a Nazgul. For some reason Cave Troll pops into my head when Gothmog is mentioned. My memory seems to be getting full of holes lately. To bad there isn't a good alternative to getting older! ;D
David
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Post by gilgaladtolkien on Mar 17, 2006 20:34:00 GMT
Hi barliman, In my mind the charioteer of Rhun is in a chariot That was my idea gilgaladtolkien
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Post by barliman on Mar 17, 2006 20:37:50 GMT
Good! I'm sure Chris would make a wonderful miniature of it.
And David - As I say, Tolkien himself doesn't give any hints, anywhere - either in the finished LOTR or his earlier drafts of the manuscript - regarding who or what he envisaged Gothmog to be. The Nazgul suggestion is mere conjecture. I think the idea that he was a Troll was generated in one of the old ICE publications. The original Gothmog, back in the First Age, was a Balrog.
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Post by gilgaladtolkien on Mar 17, 2006 20:54:58 GMT
My opinion of Gothmog is , that he is a Nazgul or a human creature like Mouth of Sauron. I can' t imagine that an orc or a troll commands an army while 8 Nazguls are on the battlefield.
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Post by barliman on Mar 18, 2006 7:22:02 GMT
Absolutely right. This is the exact line of thought pursued by the original proponents of the Nazgul theory. Following this argument to its logical conclusion, Gothmog could ONLY be a Nazgul, since it's highly improbable that Sauron's elite would have submitted to the commands of anyone but their master or one of their own. Though the Nazgul doubtless fell outside of conventional Mordorian military organisation, it's hard to believe that anyone else would have dared to assume command on a battlefield while any of them were present!
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Post by Gildor on Mar 18, 2006 16:38:53 GMT
All I can say is that Gothmog is second in command of the armies of Sauron after the Witch-King (who was killed just before gothmog appearence in the text) there is an entry for him in the encyclopedia of Arda : www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.asp?url=http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/g/gothmog2.htmlIt MAY have been a troll, but most certainly a Nazgul OR a man (like Mouth of Sauron, who is the lieutenant of Barad-dûr, so why the lieutenant of Minas Morgul would not be a black numenorean too) anyway, wargs live in the north of Middle-Earth, and though Sauron was once a lord of the wolves, and even shapeshifted to Werewolf form in 1st Age; there is not a SINGLE time in the LoTR where there is a description of a wolf or a warg during the battle of the Pelenor fields... no wolves , no mounted orcs described at all (the word wolf, warg does not appear at all in these chapters, I checked...) Whatever Gothmog may be, I find it very difficult to have him on a warg... Orcs mounted on wargs were used by Saruman, not by Sauron at all... he was using wild wolves, unmounted, as agents... and Wolves did not live in Mordor apparently... Well I am not very enthousiast with the idea of seing a Gothmog ORC on a Warg... that would be "Peter Jackson inspired" , according to me...
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Post by ddaines on Mar 18, 2006 18:47:53 GMT
Barli is right about Gothmog's origins - he was a Balrog, killed I believe by Ecthelion of the Fountain during the fall of Gondolin.
I tend to agree with comments about this suggestions validity (in terms of being a Tolkien original or a Peter Jackson useage of a good name) I don't quite see how Gothmog fits in personally as anything other than another Nazgul.
I'm sure the Chief Nazgul was the commander in the field, and on that basis the other eight would be 2 i/c, 3i/c etc. being Sauron's most feared servants. So who or what could we have Gothmog being if not a Nazgul? AND, I'm sure these Kings of men wouldn't be riding a 'scabby' wolf into battle!
Perhaps for authenticity's sake this is not a figure I would be wild about, but I do feel bad about saying it as this is someones suggestion AND is getting a good show at the polls. The votes will tell and I'd buy it anyway.
Good to see Gildor doing his homework regarding Wargs etc not being present at the battle.
David.
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Post by Gildor on Mar 18, 2006 22:15:54 GMT
well actually, though I support the idea of a Gothmog even as an orc, why not... it's the warg idea that upsets me... it simply can't be possible to have a "war leader" at the pelennor fields on the back of a warg... as for Gothmog being a Nazgul or not... well if "the Mouth of Sauron" did not exist, I would say that Gothmog is almost 100% certainly a Nazgul. But Mouth of Sauron is high in command in Sauron hierarchy, and still he is not a Nazgul... so who knows about Gothmog? For information, MERP represented Gothmog as a Troll if I remember well, a great olog-hai... if that's so, the figurine of Burzash could even be used as Gothmog
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Post by twrich on Mar 19, 2006 0:54:56 GMT
I for one believe firmly that Tolkien intended Gothmog to be a mystery, as to specifically which entity he was, else why not give him detail as he did for so many others? Having said that I think he was a Nazgul, which were Human Kings of old who fell under Sauron's sway--perhaps some Black Numenorean; but more likely from the East or the South, and not decended from Numenoreans (we'd probably have a record of him if Numenorean)! By not identifying him as a Nazgul, Tolkien would have less need for naming and giving background to the others, aside from the Witch-King (regarding the Nazgul, ICE in MERP took "poetic license" and gave them names, which I do not begrudge, but will never confuse with Tolkien's intentions either).
So, although the idea of "Gothmog Riding upon on a Warg" might be a fun piece, and I would buy it if it won this month, it certainly couldn't be considered "realistic." If this piece doesn't win, I hope the person who first suggested it will revise Gothmog to be a Nazgul, Lt. of Mordor, upon a rearing horse with wild eyes and flaring nostrils, leading Sauron's minions upon the field of Battle outside of Minas Tirith!
Also, for those familiar with the classic board game, "War of the Ring" by SPI (my all-time favorite game!), Gothmog was Nazgul #2.
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Post by shadowspawn1 on Mar 19, 2006 0:58:42 GMT
Concerning Gothmog, He certainly is an enigma as he was mentioned exactly once in LOTR. In my own humble opinion, I believe him to be a man, a descendant of the Black Numenoreans, much like the Lieutenant of Barad-Dur.
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Post by Axel on Mar 19, 2006 7:56:16 GMT
I don't believe that Gothmog is a Nazgul. Their part in the whole battle seems to be to bring terror, rather then taking command on the ground. The only exception is the Witchking, but with his death all traces of the Nazgul vanish from the battlefield. Being airmounted anyway, it is imho likely that they were withdrawn - perhaps because the demise of their leader was a mystery to Sauron and he would not want to risk his most valuable followers in a mere skirmish. I am sure that a more active part on their side in the ensuing would have been mentioned, given their effect on the morale. With the ruling Nazgul often away from Minas Morgul there must have been someone in command of Minas Morgul, some kind of Castellan that was willing to take upon him the daily duty to command a city and build & train an army while they were on the hunt. That trusted commander was probably Gothmog. The name sounds like dark speech, so he could be anything from a Dark Numenorian (like the Mouth), a human of the vast subject areas - perhaps a slave especially trained and selected for intelligence, cunning and ruthlessness - or a specially bred half orc or half troll. The latter is imho the least likely variant, since intelligence and loyality are primary qualities needed. And, of course, hecould be something else - the mystery - a minor "balrog", a human enslaved by a minor ring, or some other vile creature back from Morgoths armory.
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Post by Gildor on Mar 19, 2006 12:38:56 GMT
A good idea would be to make a Gothmog in a design that does not reveal his true nature...
hooded as a Nazgul could be, maybe with some armor indeed... but nobody could tell for sure what he is... except that he is humanoid... depending on the main idea, he could ba large shouldered or small if he is thought to be some breed of troll, massive man, or on the countrary if he is some kind of orc (which seems doubtfull) . on foot or on horse seems definitly a good choice as warg seems irrelevent in this battlefield, the only beasts appearing on the Pelennor are horses, Mumakils, and fell beasts...
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Post by MBmotel17 on Mar 19, 2006 18:15:42 GMT
Hey everyone, I put up the idea of the Gothmog on warg having his troops charge into battle. I envisioned him as an orc, because the nazguls had their leader, the witchking. The men of the south and the east had their cheiftans, so I see him as an intelligent orc leading his troops. and since sauron dealt so closely with Saruman, I dont think that it is very unlikely that his army would include some wargs.
I dont think he was a nazgul, because there were only 9 nazguls, and none of the original nine were attributed as gothmog. I dont think Gothmog was a man, because sauron's army was almost entirely orcs, besides the armies of men that he inlisted from other areas. I dont see a troll being intelligent enough to lead an army, the troll chieftans were moreintelligent then others of its kind, but only enough so to be more of a threat in battle.
And in the orcs of the Red Eye set that came out a while ago, they had 2 orcs of Sauron on wargs, so it might not be completely impossible that his orcs had wargs. But whatever way it goes, Chris will make this scene of Gothmog leading his troops into a great vignette!!!
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Post by Gildor on Mar 19, 2006 19:06:04 GMT
all of the above has some sense indeed Actually the fact that Tolkien dit not give name to Nazgul before, does not mean that one of them can't have a name being brought into the text surprisingly. After all, it was the case for Khamul when he was mentionned for the first time in the Unfinished Tales. As for the dealings between Sauron and Saruman, I have always considered Saruman being a pawn of Sauron since the time he began to be corrupted. and to finish with, Gothmog is a leader indeed but the only thing that is known about him is that he is second in command on the battlefield after the witch-king... that's not just "his troops", he is the leader of everything Sauron sent against Minas Tirith. It may not have been a Nazgul, nor a man, it may have been an orc, but whatever he is, he commands Haradrim, Easterlings, orcs, trolls; at least that's my impression. Anyway, I have no doubt that Chris Tubb will be able to figure out how to "render" him if he was to win the vote, though I admit I would prefer the charioteer or my suggestion of elessar crowning
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Post by Wendy on Mar 19, 2006 20:59:57 GMT
Could it be that Gothmog was a man (Numenorian or not) who fell victim to the Morgul blade of the Witchking and therefore is under the Witchking's control? No one really knows, which makes the debate intriguing.
I have no idea which suggestion to give my vote. At least for the first round, I'll go with my sentimental favorite...
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Post by Gildor on Mar 20, 2006 0:11:16 GMT
from what Aragorn says, if I remember well, those hit by Morgul blades end up becoming wraiths. Actually the barrow-wights may be the lords of Arnor who fell during the battles of Angmar and were struck by the Witch-King Morgul blade (there's a theory about that) ... And except Nazgul , I don't know if wraiths would have enough will, charisma and enough consciousness to lead an army.
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Post by Hammershield on Mar 20, 2006 12:35:46 GMT
Since, as Barliman poins out, Gothmog, is a taken name I think it would fit better with the narative if this leuftenent was a creature bred, tutored and trained by the Witchking. So an olog-hai , an enslaved human (brilliant but without a known past or known name) or cunning orc or would work better IMO.
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Post by mshartmann on Mar 20, 2006 14:29:18 GMT
I agree with the notion of Gothmog as human, but nopt as a Nazgul. Even though the Nazgulk are around the Pelennor, it seems that Gothmog could not have been preparing his army for war and been part of the search for the ring (as the 9 nazgul were). The Witch King is sent to the battle by Sauron but does not command the army per se. I envision Gothmog as being very similar to the Mouth of Sauron - he is a Black Numenorean - surely there were many "royals" from this line who could fill this role. Think of him as sort of the anti-Aragorn, powerful, but fallen, turned to evil by his rejection of Illuvatar and his submission to Sauron. Just my thoughts.
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Post by Gildor on Mar 20, 2006 14:45:29 GMT
Actually I share the idea mshartmann has about Gothmog... It seems logical. The idea of Hammershield too is a good one actually I checked some grammar and vocabulary about the black speech . Actually, "Goth" means Lord/Master and "Mog" means voice. Actually that would mean Voice of the Lord/Master... which is VERY VERY close to "Mouth of Sauron"... thus leading to think that either gothmog is the translation in blackspeech for the Mouth of Sauron himself, but since gothmog is presented as lieutenant of Morgul, and not lieutenant of Barad-dur, it can hardly be the same. Another hypothesis would be that "Mouth of Sauron" is but a Title! there are several ones of this kind, and Gothmog is one of them.. thus being of the same kind as the official Mouth of Sauron we see later at Cirith Gorgor. Actually "Someone who would speak for the Master" must have some charisma, and undisputed authority among all the troops... I doubt an orc could achieve that among non-orc troops, unless he is VERY VERY frightful and bigger than a warg is able to carry on its back
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