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Post by ddaines on Mar 20, 2006 18:08:14 GMT
:DWell whatever Gothmog turns out to be should he get the vote, Chris will 'sort it'. One little fact creeping up is the Charioteer of Rhun, currently charging into the lead and which sounds like a really nice peice should it pass the finishing post first, could prove to be a rather expensive set if released as a Gold Fellowship peice.
I do not use these figures for anything other than dioramas or scenes of events (but I would certainly envisage a group of at least 3 chariots to make a dynamic diorama), and I have absolutely no idea how many units a RPG player would require for a 'game'.
What I would imagine is that to tool and mould all the parts of a chariot, driver, warrior and team of nags may make this a great gap filler, but one that would be too expensive to collect in numbers.
Just a thought, it is a great suggestion, just hope it wouldn't break the bank.
David.
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Post by Axe99 on Mar 20, 2006 20:29:20 GMT
Love this Gothmog discussion - quite informed! Which means I'm a little reluctant about putting in my two cents, but I guess I'd be against the 'nazgul' theory, as I'm not sure if the nazgul were necessarily good leaders, but rather good very powerful single agents. There's no history of the nazgul leading Sauron's armies at any stage - it may be the case that as wraiths their mental processes (if wraiths can be said to had these!) are not necessarily suited to battlefield leadership. And remember that they were all kings of men - we all know what happens when politicians try and get involved in the hands-on business of battles (that's a joke, in case the dryness doesn't come through ). But as for what Gothmog would be if not a Nazgul is very much out in the open. My thoughts would be not a troll, or things would perhaps be more than a little disorganised (!), and if it was to be an orc then an uruk-hai. While, if it was a man or uruk-hai, our 'Gothy' may be getting a little large for your average warg, I'm sure they could do a search for a bigger-than-your-average warg, especially if they only needed one. As for deciding between a man or uruk-hai, I'm not sure if there's much to split 'em. I'd probably err slightly on the side of a man, as orcs tend not to have leadership positions in LOTR (a la the mouth, Saruman), or when they were there was potential for strife (the Merry/Pippin hostage party or the two groups at the tower of Cirith Ungol) but they must have had leaders, and uruk-hai would have been plenty sharp enough to do the job. Gothy isn't the only great suggestion though - how about that charioteer? A dark 'horse' if ever there was one. I'd be perfectly happy (indeed, more than perfectly happy) if any of the suggestions which currently had no votes got up. The run-off will definitely be interesting .
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Post by Gildor on Mar 20, 2006 21:25:52 GMT
you know, the debate on what Gothmog is is close to the one about what Tom Bombadil is, in many many tolkien communities... I have seen this debate a lot of times always as interesting! My point is, I'd like to see a Gothmog made BUT at the same time i would not because I have absolutly no idea what it could be and thus I would fear the dramatical mistake about it. It is not like Sauron. We don't know how to represent Sauron but we know what he is... as For Gothmog that's quite more difficult to visualize. as for warg, if he is an orc a warg "may" fit but it would need to be huge... if he is a man... men do not ride wargs, only orcs do. Anyway, one thing is for sure, Gothmog CANNOT be as awful and dumblike as the crippled orc thingy seen in LOTR3 movie, this bulb or orc flesh may be terrifying among orcs, he has no warleader stature for an army of Sauron.
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Post by mshartmann on Mar 21, 2006 1:37:43 GMT
I agree with Gildor on this one - Gothmog is also one who "speaks for the master." Indeed, who else to lead thearmy of the dark lord but the dark lord himself - through his slave! Still have to continue the idea of a black Numenorian buit only one of these "men" would be powerfulto play this role. And please, no bulby, fleshy face-thing going on! And not on a warg- rather on a powerful war horse - kind of like M145 (Mouth of Sauron) but in a battle pose of some sort - sword upraised, etc. Also, don't be too sure about the charioteer - he is leading now but I (and many others) have cast votes in round one for other figures and we may be the tie-breakers in round 2! Although I could be happy with the chariot (1 horse or 2?).
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Post by mshartmann on Mar 21, 2006 1:40:35 GMT
Hey, that brings up a question. If we do vote for Gothmog (but several of us have asked for a different mount - not a warg) - is there some way to change this from the original? Nothing against wargs, but that seems kind of Peter Jackson-ish. The answer could well sway my vote - I would be happy with Gothmog - just not on a warg!
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Post by twrich on Mar 21, 2006 6:36:56 GMT
Hi mshartmann,
For those of us who have already cast votes, changing the decription of an idea already accepted for first round voting would not be fair, the vote might have been completely different--for example, what if someone specifically voted for Gothmog BECAUSE of the Warg. I doubt Michael would allow it in any case. But if Gothmog doesn't win this month he can always be suggested again in a different format during a future monthly Suggestion time-frame.
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Post by aelfwine on Mar 21, 2006 9:29:18 GMT
OK, its 4am, and I just got back from a 8 hour drive from Toronto, so bear with me.
There's a notation in one of the "histories" books to the effect that Sauron's corrupted maiar can take other forms - including Orcs - in later ages. So Gothmog of the Third Age may indeed by Gothmog of the first age, reincarnated in a "lesser" form.
I think it would be interesting to have Gothmog as a "nazgul-like" figure - which would cover Gothmog as man, Gothmog as nazgul, Gothmog as wighty thing and even Gothmog as an orc.
I am not sure about him on a Warg, however. I would think a fell beast or a horse might be a better "fit"
Gavin
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Post by Gildor on Mar 21, 2006 10:54:55 GMT
If I remember well Aelfwine, Gothmog (the balrog) was first in command of Melkor army and his name comes from that property for both Gothmog(s). Balrogs have lost their ability to change form since the beginnings of time when they chose to follow Melkor, they were fire spirits. Sauron was a Maia of Aulë and switched between evil and "apparently good" so many times that he kept his ability to change fana until there was no way back after Akallabeth. That's not true for the Feanturi. If I remember well, I even think they are cast into Kuma (the void) to wait for Dagor Dagorath (the apocalypse) with their Master once their body is defeated, unlike mortals or other maiar. such as Olorin/Gandalf Besides, Balrogs are devoted to Melkor directly, they have never obeyed Sauron and never would I think. (actually Gothmog the balrog was higher in esteem and hierarchy in the Lost Tales book than Sauron was, actually in Lost Tales 1 Gothmog is the SON of Melkor and the giant woman Ulbandi ... Could you imagine the son of Melkor being the lieutenant of the guy who was himself the lieutenant of his father? ... sorry for the little off-topic but this debate is interesting. Actually , like mshartmann, if there was no warg on the Gothmog figurine I would be inclined to vote for it (whatever it may be). But with a warg I think I definitly won't.
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Post by khador on Mar 21, 2006 12:02:03 GMT
I have voted for Gothmog too. I like very much discuss about Gothmog's appearance but I don't agree with Nazgul theory. Nazgul were proud men kings which get a ring in the past (given by Sauron). There only are 9 nazgul in Middle-earth history. Black Numenorrean theory is intriguing but a problem is staying in : if Gothmog is a Black Numenorrean, why owns he a name (Gothmog !) whereas the Mouh of Sauron (an other Black Numenorrean) has lost his one ? The orcich (or half-trollish) theory is not worse that the other ones. If Gothmog is an orc, you can say he's not very intelligent, powerful or charismatic. Statistically, you're right (compared with basic orcs) but we can imagine Gothmog is a rare, powerful, dangerous and abnormal orc who became the leader of Sauron's Army. I don't believe Gothmog gives orders to Nazgul, because Nazgul are powerful and dangerous agents for Sauron - only obsessed by the One Ring. Gothmog is an other kind of agent for Sauron who must lead his Mordor army to crash Minas Tirith. A exceptional orc can do that. At last, I remember to you that orcs only aren't stupid and coward, but also are dangerous, innumerable, vicious. They were elves at the origins.
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Post by Axel on Mar 21, 2006 12:15:36 GMT
> that seems kind of Peter Jackson-ish
While we are at the dissection of Gothmog and his origins... what about the Chariot? Its some while ago that I read the sourrounding literature, and my memory only brings in the "wainriders", a people that moves with its wagons. I simply cannot remember the appearance of Chariots on the battlefields of the Gondorian border clashes. From a military viewpoint, chariots make no sense once the horses are big enough to be ridden. More so, I shudder at the cost of a chariot-model for the fellowship, given that I am deeply sceptical of its relevance to Tolkiens work.
Perhaps you can help me out with some quotes of Tolkien regarding Chariots...
BTW: 51 votes now, 11 going to the chariot and 8 to the Warg. I hope that we will get four or five suggestions in the second run.
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Post by Gildor on Mar 21, 2006 15:01:21 GMT
the wainrider peoples were moving from east (Rhun) using wagons but their leaders and warriors were using chariots as war vehicules for combat, their families were using wagons. It is somewhere in the Unfinished Tales if I remember well, and it is quoted in the Tyler "Tolkien Companion" As for Gothmog, I agree with Khador, except that there MAY be a possibility that Gothmog stands for "Mouth of Sauron" in black speech actually, thus "mouth of Sauron" would only be a title... theories, only theories
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Post by barliman on Mar 21, 2006 19:54:25 GMT
As I've pointed out in the parallel debate that's been proceeding on the MMP site, Tolkien mentions chariots in the main text of LOTR, and, I've just realised, in the appendices too: in the main text, Frodo, sitting in the Seat of Seeing atop Amon Hen, saw that 'out of the East Men were moving endlessly: swordsmen, spearmen, bowmen upon horses, chariots of chieftains and laden wains'; and in Appendix A we're told that the earlier wave of Easterlings specifically known (to Gondorians) as the Wainriders 'journeyed in great wains, and their chieftains fought in chariots'. (I'm not certain, but I don't think there are any references to chariots in "Unfinished Tales", Gildor.)
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Post by Gildor on Mar 22, 2006 0:07:12 GMT
in UT3 the passage is in "Cirion & Eorl and the friendship of Gondor and Rohan" "...So it came to pass that the head of the army of Gondor had only drawn level with the Gates of Mordor (the Morannon) when a great dust borne on a wind from the East announced the oncoming of the enemy vanguard. This was composed not only of the war-chariots of the Wainriders but also of a force of cavalry far greater than any that had been expected..." Well this occurs in the past during King Ondoher, not during the War of the Ring. but that indeed appears in the Unfinished Tales
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Post by barliman on Mar 22, 2006 6:35:22 GMT
Thanks for the reference, Gildor (I haven't read "Unfinished Tales" for a while - clearly I need to get it out again). Hopefully these allusions to Easterling chariots in both LOTR and "Unfinished Tales" should dispel any lingering doubts among Fellowship members regarding the validity of a chariot model.
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Post by estel on Mar 22, 2006 16:04:00 GMT
Hello Gil-Galadtolkien, I think you are right! Gothmog in my opinion never was a typical Orc or Troll, but some characters Tolkien mentioned never had any real existence in my imaginations/fantasies. Like Sauron, they were just mentioned and like a dark threat. So I am not very happy with any of the "inventions" done by New Line Cinema. In fact, the movie is great, and I like Gothmog, Lurtz and so on as movie characters, but people should realize, that Jackson himself always said, it is just an interpretation of the books. So I hope, that Mithril will not just "remake" interpretations of New Line Cinema's movie (like Gothmog as an Orc), but will go further and Chris will invent something new- he is quite good at that!! Although I like many of the suggestions of the fellowship members, I hope, that some of the sugggestions will be done as a normal M- range, or the fellowshwip- membership will cost to much to an average collector (Chariot of Rhun is without doubt a great idea!! but as a fellowship piece will be high priced?). I like more the things like Bilbo barrel-rider, Helm Hammerhand and especially Beruthiel and Halbarad (very very fine minis!!). So that's it. Hope not to be too critical, but as an old fashioned dunedain, I try to be conservative
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Post by khador on Mar 22, 2006 17:20:42 GMT
I agree with you Estel ! I like very very much Pete Jackson's movies but I hope from Mithril new designs, and why not, new concepts of characters, events and scenes.
I think it's interesting to compare several different designs of a same thing. If Gothmog is the winner then I hope do not find the same art that the Jackson's "Gothy" (even I like him).
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Post by twrich on Mar 22, 2006 19:29:44 GMT
Looking at the voting, it is very interesting to me that pivotal scenes like Gandalf Crowns Elessar; Thorin/Arkenstone; Grimbold/Elfhelm/Theodred; etc . . . are trailing Snowtroll; Gothmog/Warg; and Charioteer of Rhun, all worthy suggestions, but either controversial in description (Gothmog), or vaguely mentioned in the writings at best.
And yet one hears great sighing and groaning when it is suggested that characters invented by ICE for MERP, which Chris clearly liked to do (and for which Mithrils were originally commissioned), are suggested.
I do agree that we shouldn't have revisions from the movies made into Mithrils, as they (although I enjoyed them greatly) changed Tolkien's ACTUAL story, where MERP just added content to the early and middle Third Age--a BIG difference! When dealing with the later Third Age, where Tolkien's writings were clear, MERP was very TRUE to his works.
I am not being critical, please understand. I just find the vote very interesting!! Perhaps members feel that there are plenty of Gandalfs, Rohirrim, Dwarves, etc . . . and want people and creatures that are more exotic or that haven't been created yet, but which still can be justified (even if by only a single sentence) as being from the works of Tolkien.
Very interesting indeed!
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Post by mshartmann on Mar 22, 2006 21:00:57 GMT
I agree with Twirch completely (sad that my suggestion of Pippin on the fields of Pelenor got just one vote so far - mine). I am very much more interested in the Lord of the Rings and hence may not get a Bilbo Barrell Rifer. I'm not too keen on the snowtroll or the charioteer either. I am not a MERP player, but an avid Tolkien fan who likes the miniatures because they bring life to the stories. hence, my reasoning behind not supporting non-canon figures. I would be very happy with Aragorn and Gandalf, Imrahil, Frodo and Same, etc.
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Post by mshartmann on Mar 22, 2006 21:02:02 GMT
Oops, let me add that I WILL be picking up a Cirdan and a Helm when they are available - very cool!
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Post by Axel on Mar 22, 2006 22:12:48 GMT
I concede the point with the chariot. Still, I cannot imagine the "war chariot" as some kind of light chariot (thats what cavalry is for), and so any model that I will find both fitting to Tolkien and military realism will not be within my price class. Well, I don`t like the "warg"- part of Gothom either, so I can just hope that the second run will see more votes going to Thorin and the Arkenstone (with the battle of the Mirkwood and Burzash not too long ago, another Trull just does not catch my imagination either - and I know, I am picky. No offense meant to those who suggested them).
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