|
Post by ddaines on Jul 6, 2006 19:33:03 GMT
What's the general opinion on this - many releases have been designed in plate armour, and many members specifically request new releases in armour, but did Tolkien himself ever describe any of his characters in full plate armour? My own personal opinion (and descriptive recollections are of plenty of mail hauberks, but not many full armour mentions) is that Mithrils look better in mail with the odd bit of armour like greaves, arm protection etc. but not the 'full metal jacket'. Don't get me wrong the armoured guys look fine and I would never consider not collecting them, but I do feel Middle Earth should be a 'plate armour free zone', except on the odd occasion where armour adds to the power of the figure, my own visions from the early days as a 10/11 year old when I first read the books was always of warriors clad in bright mail. Anyhow just a thought. p.s. I know we have members from France, do we have any from Italy? May the best side win on Sunday and give us all an entertaing game. Congratulations and commiserations in advance. ;D
|
|
|
Post by aelfwine on Jul 7, 2006 1:57:36 GMT
Basically, no. Nobody has plate armour. Everything is described as "mail." Nowadays, in geek and fantasy circles "mail" means armour. There's usually a pre-fix: chain-mail, plate-mail, ring-mail, scale-mail and so on and so forth. Mail actually means "chain" - so "chainmail" is a double up word meaning the same thing: armour-armour. However, Tolkien knew enough about armour to be specific. When he said mail, he meant mail. (He himself said: like the Norman soldiers on the Bayeux Tapestry). The line the Mithril takes is that the "advanced" civilisations such as Numenor and the High Elves developed "plate" or "gothic" armour. Which is fine. I'd rather they wouldn't, but I ain't paying Chris Tubb to sculpt. The exception, of course, is the Knights of Dol Amroth who have something different going on. They are initially described as wearing "shining mail" but Imrahil also has a steel vambrace. Also, the Knights are described as wearing "full harness." Harness could be taken to mean "armour" - as in "they were all well armoured" but oddly, the term harness seems to historically specifically refer to "plate" or "gothic" armour. (During the War of the Roses era, aldermen of London were required by law to have a set of "full harness" - they also have to clank around in the stuff on certain occassions. Then some sneaky blighter brought some guns with them to war. That was the end of that.) However, I think the best compromise here is: the knights wear a mail hauberk, some sort of full, steel, helmet; steel greaves and vambraces and maybe some shoulder armour. (Remarkably like the "Swan Knight" model from the vignettes, oddly) Personally, I take it that since Tolkien was a scholar of the linguistics and poetry of "dark ages" England, and the Germanic languages of the Migrations Era, the technology and weaponry look and feel should always be from 500 to 1066. So if you can imagine Beowulf wearing it, we are golden. Hell, the Lord of the Rings is part of Tolkien's odd obsession to create an English mythology (without any of yer stinky French Romanticism and Celtic whatever-ism, thank you very much - which pretty much beats the Knights In Shining Armour out of play). Which is why I would rather not see a Glorfindel in armour, if that means Glorfindel is wearing any form of plate. Gavin
|
|
|
Post by barliman on Jul 7, 2006 5:32:44 GMT
'Harness' actually derives from Old French 'harneis' (even if he'd wanted to, JRRT could no more purge the English language of French words than the nutcases who these days try to purge the French language of English words). This meant 'war equipment', and derived ultimately from Old High German 'herr' (army) and 'nest' (provisions). It came in time to denote the full equipment of a warrior, and consequently became adopted in common usage as meaning full armour, and then full plate armour, though as late as the 15th century it could still be found in use as an alternative name for a coat of mail - which I suspect is what our favourite philiologist, with his love of using words in their purest sense whenever he could, had in mind when he used the word 'harness' to describe the armour of the Knights of Dol Amroth. He definitely did not mean plate; certainly in one passage he specifically describes Imrahil as standing in his 'shining mail'.
So, no plate body armour for Imrahil, just plate vambraces (and, by logical extension, possibly/probably plate greaves too). Plate armour for the forearms and lower legs was certainly in use in Europe during the 'Dark Ages', so there's nothing anomalous about its appearance in LOTR.
Yet there remains a case for not entirely dismissing the possibility of plate body-armour in Middle-earth. Remember that it was being worn in the Mediterranean world and the ancient Near East more than a thousand years before the Dark Ages commenced.
|
|
|
Post by aelfwine on Jul 7, 2006 11:14:33 GMT
Oh certainly, you are quite correct about the near east/Roman world. I think the Romans were using it right up until the Empire fell. Twas heavy, heavy stuff though!
And thank's so much for the harness etymology. I figured it was something like that, but now I know. You rock.
Gavin
|
|
|
Post by Axel on Jul 7, 2006 18:10:15 GMT
I imagine that craftsmen like the Elfs who have years of time and plenty of skill will probably produce armour that is at least as effective as the best the human culture has produced. That might mean some part of plate where it counts, though you have to consider the reason for it. Unlike the late medieval times, the opponent in ME is unlikely to field cheap muskets, so the arms race of our world does not need to repeat even with time and skill being no problem.
Usually the armour should reflect the main enemy and traditions. For Gondor, these would be Haradrim and (near the ring war) Orks, with a tradition ranging back to old Numenor, read: use whatever is necessary. We also have to consider that Elven produced mail is probably superior to everythign mere humans can create, so there is probably no need for them to use plate where it interferes with the movement.
In summary, I cannot imagine full plate - which was largely a reaction to the introduction of firearms. Mail with some plate pieces is the most likely armour of the heavy warrior, like Knights, and some of the craftsmanship - or rather craftselfship - can look weired to the human eye.
|
|
|
Post by Gildor on Jul 8, 2006 14:30:20 GMT
we could easily imagine that the host of Valinor, lead by Eonwë, had plates to differentiate themselves from the people of Endor and making them more "evoluted" in term of armors. but you are true that nowhere in Unfinished Tales, Silmarillion, and LoTR, we can see a single plate-mail, but always mail, or chainmails, either in skirts, coats or other parts of chain armor. Historically, Plate armor appeared on battlefields later in Middle-age in order to resist archery ranges and Light Projectiles, but we don't have Mithril on Earth hehe. The apparition of firearms at the end of Middle-age provoked the slow disparition of plate armors which could be pierced by bullets, not the contrary, according to my memory. As for Glorfindel, he is a noldo elf... presumly back from Valinor in the Third Age , maybe he brought an armor of Valinor with him, we can't be sure and that is speculation. Besides, Thin chainmail can be far more pretty than platemail which are rigid. As for the appearence in Tolkien universe. a "chainmail harness" could really look like a "platemail harness" with the slight difference that it is skin-tight.... somewhat like a shiny superhero costume if you like There is no reason for "tolkien-world chainmail" to have visible rings, the "mithril coat" is a very good exemple of that. There is a mention of Plate parts of armor in LoTR, when Sam sees the haradrim passing by, in Ithilien, he describes one of them with parts of plates on his body. That is the only occurence I have found.
|
|
|
Post by barliman on Jul 8, 2006 16:54:32 GMT
What the Haradrim soldier in Ithilien is actually described as wearing is 'a corslet of overlapping brazen plates', meaning armour constructed from an unknown but probably substantial number of small pieces of metal - in other words, a variety of scale armour, or possibly lamellar, not plate armour.
|
|