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Post by Michael O'Brien on Jul 27, 2011 13:26:20 GMT
We have had numerous enquiries and requests from members about the regular M series and whether we are planning to release further figures in this format. Currently, because of low sales figures for the Mithril M range, it has not been viable to produce more ranges in this series since the disappointing sales of the Helm’ Deep 1 set.
However we realize that there is a significant number of collectors who wish to see more M figures released, and so, after much consultation and discussion we have decided to attempt a rather new and novel experiment with the M series. This new approach not only allows members to choose which M range they would like to see, but also the price will depend on how many orders we receive.
We have carefully considered the pricing structure for the range which will be as follows: If we sell 100 sets then the price / figure will be €22.50. If we sell 400 sets then the price will be €7.50. We will use a sliding scale of prices to exactly work out the costs of any number of sets between 100 and 400 (thus 120 sets will be a little cheaper than 100 sets). We will also offer a discount on multiples of the same figure which are bought ( €19.95 for 3 figures) 1. Fellowship members and Bronze Level members will decide which range they would like to see produced. We will open a suggestion list for an M range similar to that for the Ms figures, and hold a vote on which suggestion would be most popular. Members can choose anything they wish, as long as it falls within the constraints of the Tolkien licence, and as long as the 10 releases are 10 single figures, or 9 single figures and 1 cavalryman ( or equivalent).*
2. Suggestions can be as simple or as complex as you wish, ranging from a simple title for the range such as “ The men of Dale” to a detailed list of every figure that might be included in the set, with sketches if so desired. ** 3. We will open the suggestion page for 2 weeks and keep the poll open for a further 2 weeks. After the winning suggestion has been decided we will publish the complete list of 10 releases. 4. After the range has been announced we will start taking pre-orders for the series. Those members who would be interested in the series can let us know. We will take no payment at this time – we just want collectors to tell us their intent to buy. Anyone can buy this range . It is open to all and not just Fellowship members.
5. If 100 pre-orders have been received at the end of the month we will make the range, put them up on site and advertise them. We will wait a further month for extra orders which would make the range less expensive.
6. We will release the range in 2 parts, the first part as soon as the second month is elapsed and the second part, one month later. 7. Figures will be released in the usual Mithril blister packs * - There will be some leeway in deciding the contents of the range. While we want to avoid large numbers of double blisters ( cavalrymen and Razaraks!) I will try and be flexible as possible to accommodate essential figures which are a bit more than human sized. ** - members can vote for Helm’s deep 2 ( Death to the Strawheads!) if they so wish but both HD3 and easterlings are too large for this release
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Post by Gildor on Jul 27, 2011 22:12:57 GMT
I have one question : How does Mithril plan to advertise/promote/ let people know WIDELY about this new M format, and the preorder possibility... the current customer pool won't reach 400 not even 300 with only newsletter, twitter, facebook it needs strong communication plan... worldwide and in several languages... and also eventually, warn the local distributors of this ... is there something planned on this part of the project or is it the duty of us customers, to 1) suggest 2) preorder 3) translate 4)promote and advertise .... If that's so, I'd suggest a system of sponsorship for customers who bring new customers to Mithril... after all it is not supposed to be the duty of customers to find new customers... and we should not "pay the heavy price" because of the lack of communication we are not responsible of (no critics... I simply ask here)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2011 7:14:59 GMT
I am glad you mentioned that Gildor. If they are only going to sell around 100 this makes the price the same as the fellowship and I for one can not afford all the releases for that. Also with knowing what the final price will be I cannot think of pre ordering. Does Mithril have presence in gaming shops nowadays? as I haven't seem any since the early 90's?
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Post by barliman on Jul 28, 2011 7:17:32 GMT
I'm very worried about the theoretical pricing structure. The reason HD1 sold "poorly" (porridge instead of undercoat aside) is that they were considered to be too expensive. So how is charging three times as much going to help? I'm not sure enough people will be prepared to take the gamble and commit themselves when the time for official subscription arrives if €22.50 is likely to be the price they'd have to pay - my guess is that they'll sit back and wait to see if enough other people commit themselves first so that the prices come down. It's a rather "chicken and egg" situation!
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Post by imisel on Jul 28, 2011 7:52:32 GMT
I'm very worried about the theoretical pricing structure. The reason HD1 sold "poorly" (porridge instead of undercoat aside) is that they were considered to be too expensive. So how is charging three times as much going to help? I'm not sure enough people will be prepared to take the gamble and commit themselves when the time for official subscription arrives if €22.50 is likely to be the price they'd have to pay - my guess is that they'll sit back and wait to see if enough other people commit themselves first so that the prices come down. It's a rather "chicken and egg" situation! Totally agree with you, Maese Barliman. That's the real problem, who of us can afford to commit to buy this 10 minis at 22.55 each with the hope that more of 100 people do the same and get the price reduced? Without some promo, it will be almost impossible.
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Post by Gildor on Jul 28, 2011 9:48:54 GMT
well, let's wait and see for an answer... if no marketing/promotion plan and no project with local distributor which still exist (like PA France) is done customers won't popup from nowhere... PA advertises for their other products, so I don't think it is really a problem to advertise for mithril too...
in terms of general marketing, when you launch a brand new product, you make a strong campaign , at least at the beginning, to try to make it work...
not to mention that all this info about the new M format is inside a password protected forum currently... and nobody outside is aware of its existence...
besides there are people who will refuse to preorder something for which they have no picture to know if they'll like it or not...
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Post by Milo on Jul 28, 2011 10:32:59 GMT
First, Thanks to Mithril's for opening suggestions to public customers. This has never been done in miniature world so far and is a great opportunity for LOTR fans. Now it comes to money discussion, I dislike the way it is presented. The reason HD1 sold poorly is that they were considered to be too expensive. So how is charging three times as much going to help? I You are damned right Barliman. Why frightening customers before anything has started ? Before telling us how pricing things will probably be, mithril should spread information on their new suggestion process worldwide. It has been done for the mithril community somehow, but this is not enough. It shall be done to LOTR community, RPG community (web sites, shops...), and Miniatures community,and all others I forget to mention ! And this is not our role I agree with Gildor. I'm only a passionate customer.
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Post by Gildor on Jul 28, 2011 11:09:45 GMT
well I am more than a passionate customer I am willing to help mithril here because I consider this project dearly as I was among its founder... so I'd like to see it work... One thing that should be important is to DISPLAY the number of current preorders, during the preorder phase, so that people see at a given time, how many preorders have been reached so far... I think THIS is important information to display... because if we never know how many preorders have been done, some people won't preorder at all... alas, the current website does not allow for dynamic filling of such info and will require manual information being filled.... more work for Michael :/
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Post by Thingol on Jul 28, 2011 11:30:31 GMT
... ok now... I have one question.... from the finances point of view ... we have opportunity to preorder figures (100 = 22,50 than 400 = 7,5)...so can we speculate ... if we have to pay 500 Euros for on kg of white metal (aluminium) but it is not ( www.metalprices.com/ ) it is less than one euro... if we have wages, marketing (there is not any kind of marketing except web - and domain prices are not so expensive)... licence payed for www.middleearth.com/ is need to be paid annually... what else.... loans, rent, depreciation.... what else... we have here... all those costs are fixed...annually. They must be paid with or without mithril... What then is the explanation here... if it is possible to made 400 figures for 7,5 whay is price for 100 - 22,50... costs are always the same... casting cost and the cost of mold are the same... If the cost of such a linearly decreasing how much will it be the price for 1000 figures... 0,99 Euros + postage... or what... it is enough to send 1000 figures in South Africa or in Japan by plane, and we have this prices reduction. What is 1000 figures in superficial marketing distribution. With a little better marketing it is possible to sell 10,000 figure in the whole world. Well I have them at home 800... and there is 1,5 billion people who can afford a only one 32 mmm figurine... and other part of the world are people who first think about food, and then about a hobby. My monthly salary is around 1000 Euros... but for me Mithril is more than hobby... I love this figures, I have it all what is possible to buy... it is more than 700 now... since 1988... and I will buy all figures in future... but please... I do not want to be a fool or a donkey ! I am highly educated. In economics, finance. I have a science master's degree. I finish my doctorate. I have skills in accounting, taxation and management. I know how to lead people to earn a salary. I have the olive groves, my own vegetables, and half acres of vines. I work a lot and I still get to express my love for Mithril. I collect figures and paint them late at night. So please those subscription or pre-order activities are to frivolous.... I want to know if mithril will be or it will be not here any more... and I'm not alone here... What will eventually happen if we do not gather 100 people in the world who want to have at home one of 5 new M regular mithril figures. Will we just keep MS or we will shut down. There are many questions here but at least 50 of us here want to hear one answer. Will we or will not have our beloved and favorite figures. And this price lowering I think is funny. Sorry if this sounds harsh. It was not my intention to be arrogant. I just want you to be more on the market. But with this marketing and pricing you will not achieve anything. It would be much better if the price is formed on the way to the minimum cost is increased by 100% and on this basis to build a new position in the market. I am sure that the price of each figure with this approach, could not be more expensive than 10 euros. At the end of, all your actions, discounts, and the prices on the website can to prove this last thought. Thanks dear mithril friends.
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Post by Gildor on Jul 28, 2011 13:14:18 GMT
I still think the preorder thing to KNOW how much figurines MUST be produced to satisfy the customers without having stocks IS the right thing to do... having a scaling price .... can be a motivation to have more preorders I understand this too, as some sort of rewarding sponsorship in an indirect manner.... I cannot answer for mithril here as they choose the price and they certainly must have a reason to do so... I don't know how much the Tolkien licence does cost...
I see that 54mm napoleonic infantry from prince august cost approximatly 18,60€ (and this is 54mm) , the recently released Karoliners 40mm moulds cost 12€ (you have to add the price of metal bars : 5Star metal bar costs 8€ and can produce 3-5 figurines that means that it costs less than 2€ of metal in addition to 12€ for the mould = 14€ including packaging, casting, production etc since these are already Prince August final prices) ... that would mean that each Tolkien figurine costs an additional "royalty" of almost 10€ to be paid to Middle-Earth enterprise.... Considering the other companies who also release Tolkien related stuff under licence (Royal Salengor, Games Workshop or even Weta, under New Line licence) I doubt it can even reach a fifth of that price
maybe an explanation of the price structure leading to a selling price of 22,50€ knowing that the preorder system allows mithril not to have any unsold stock (which makes an economy) would be interesting?
Communication is always a solution anyway...
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Post by Thingol on Jul 28, 2011 15:59:00 GMT
Gildor.... about economy.... this is not cakes, milk, bread, fruit..etc.... this is like canned beans....can stand on the stock for 3 years.... or not.... so what is 100 figures.... and what is 400 figures... they could do 400 right now, and only print leaflet inside when somebody order it. Plastic boxes, toner, sponges certainly also they have in stock, a printed cards they print for many different figures, not only for Mithril. Surely all printed in the same printing company. The scheme is the same, just change the name figures in Photoshop... I'm sure that prices should be lower, with or without pre-order.... I will buy anyway, but I'm a bit sad now....
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Post by Gildor on Jul 28, 2011 16:10:02 GMT
well.... casting AND selling only 100 should not cost more to mithril (in terms of production/benefits) than casting AND NOT selling 400....
actually it should cost less...
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Post by Thingol on Jul 28, 2011 19:04:03 GMT
Gildor... My dear mithril friend... I love Mithril.... and I will love Mithril... so I will support all ideas... and I will buy all figures, I will suggest MS figures and I will buy it all. I will suggest regular M range and I will buy it... I will buy MB, and MX and one day maybe I will collect enough money to afford myself my own MX project.... ... but those stories about economic problems with so narrow market segment is the most ridiculous... for me for sure... so we would see how many people will pre-order our new suggestions. I will pre-order for sure... and U2 so we are 2 now....
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Post by Gildor on Jul 28, 2011 20:31:51 GMT
we only need to wait and see now... wait for an answer in the first place... then... wait to see how it works out...
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Post by Theobald on Jul 29, 2011 13:09:31 GMT
Thank you very much, Thingol, for what you clearly pointed out in your last entries. I do share most of your thoughts and conviction.
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Post by arthadan on Jul 29, 2011 14:21:58 GMT
Well, I think it should be the other way around. A first limited batch at a slightly lower price to cover moulding and production costs and then a regular price for the next batches. This way people would be encouraged to be the first ones to buy, but if they risk to pay €225 for ten miniatures I think they will sit back and wait until the price is lower.
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Post by Thingol on Jul 29, 2011 17:04:28 GMT
I agree with you Master Arthadan... this is one of the marketing tricks that always succeed... Also for sure I will be one of many in this first 100 or any number of people who will buy figures for this promotional pre-order price... term for the economy for this is "break-even point" and all after that is net profit... so why not... And thanks for your words Master Ent.... hoummmmrhooooom
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Post by Gildor on Jul 29, 2011 20:40:03 GMT
this is indeed a good idea Arthadan very good one I hope Michael can rely this to Lars and they think again about it
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Post by Gildor on Aug 2, 2011 10:23:24 GMT
I think an official reply from Mithril would be welcome now, it does not take 3 business days to cope with an answer about such critical matter does-it? or maybe people at mithril are ents and this is a moot if so maybe you should invite Theobald so that he can share his wisdom
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Post by Michael O'Brien on Aug 2, 2011 10:31:31 GMT
I think an official reply from Mithril would be welcome now, it does not take 3 business days to cope with an answer about such critical matter does-it? or maybe people at mithril are ents and this is a moot if so maybe you should invite Theobald so that he can share his wisdom 1. Mithril is not beholden to answer any question asked in any time frame stated by the customer, excluding questions directly related to their order. We had bank holidays and a weekend. 2. Mithril is NOT the only thing on our minds, we have many "irons in the fire" and when we have a chance to reply we will.
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Post by Gildor on Aug 2, 2011 12:25:00 GMT
1) I just learned this was a holiday yesterday and did not know this, nobody's perfect 2) Just a hint "this is a Mithril ONLY forum" and as such, i don't understand why the MITHRIL community should be answered that there are other matters to attend than mithril, "here"... 3) in private ....
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Post by aelfwine on Aug 2, 2011 16:40:01 GMT
Alright, controversial proposal time:
- We want an M-Series - M-series are usually affordable compared to MS and MX - For various reasons, Helm's Deep 1 didn't sell very well. - One of those reasons was cost. I really wanted to buy a lot of them, but the extra 3 euro or so made it too much.
So:
Here's an idea. Cut the cost.
How? Don't use metal.
Helm's Deep, with its warriors from Isengard, Dunland, Rohan and the Orc tribes, is about the clash of armies. What I want from Helm's Deep 2 is the bones of a beautiful Chris Tubb sculpted Dunnish warband.
Metal prices have been driving miniatures manufacturers away from metal for some time now. So use a different material to make mithril "army" releases and keep the metal for the very special characters, vignettes and whatnot.
GW, for example, is switching away from metal in a rather controversial and poorly managed move. Mantic games, on the other hand, did the same thing with a lot more success. (They kept the price of the releases steady, but doubled the content). The useful thing with a resin mix is that you don't need to retool your moulds - the same moulds work. The process would be similar. It would be a matter of working out the quirks of the system and the chemistry and that, but the result - high quality figures at a lower customer price point - might be worth it.
Gavin
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Post by ddaines on Aug 2, 2011 17:33:58 GMT
Further to Gavin’s suggestion that a change of material may be a good idea, I have recently acquired figures from The Time Machine’s Teutoberger Wold, and Fantasy series, with many of the figures having been sculpted by Chris Tubb himself. The majority of these figures have been cast in resin with the odd accessory cast in the more traditional white metal. The difference in quality is very noticeable in favour of the resin cast parts which bring out the detail very well indeed, and while the white metal castings are also to a high standard the resin wins hands down. I should add that these figures are 54mm scale. Now while I cannot comment on the practicalities of casting 32mm figures in resin (I assume that Gavin is correct in that no extra tooling is required) or indeed the willingness of the company to change from metal to resin, I feel Gavin raises a good point. Also to support this suggestion of resin, as Mithril figures are not officially released as wargaming figures, but as collectors pieces due I believe to licensing issues, the requirement for a sturdier figure to withstand the continuous handling is not as great. Resin will probably make converting a lot easier as well so hopefully more sales so that collectors can convert. I did a while back cast some of the Prince August Fantasy Elves using por-a-cast 1:1 resin and these came out very nice, better in fact than my attempts at white metal casting. While I do not delve too deeply into small scale fantasy figures and my knowledge of what’s available out there is limited, I have seen figures cast in resin by ‘Kingdom of Death’ and the detail is incredible. It may not be the preferred option, but as Gavin says with the cost of raw materials perhaps worth considering .
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Post by Milo on Aug 2, 2011 21:16:08 GMT
True Gavin and David, and we already have magnificent MB279 base made of resin. And it one of my favourites miniatures.
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Post by Theobald on Aug 2, 2011 21:51:33 GMT
I always wonder where this rumour comes from ... the base of the MB279 I own definitely is made of pure metal, which gives the whole vignette something of very special weight ... sorry ... this is just a side note ...
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Post by Turambar on Aug 2, 2011 22:27:01 GMT
Everybody is talking about 400 miniatures to be sold. If I observate the voting circus right, there are usually about 42 members voting. so where the heck should come the other 358 customers come from?! @ Micheal O´Brien: "Hugh, the company has spoken!" A bit strange this answer is. May I add this statement! The company should be kindful to their customers. Especially if their customers show a huge part of enthusiasm, which obviously is the fact!
Your base is a metal base, Theobald !? Very interesting! Mine is also made of resin . . . Maybe the company could solve this, until there is no weekend in sight . . .
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Post by aelfwine on Aug 3, 2011 0:10:26 GMT
I always wonder where this rumour comes from ... the base of the MB279 I own definitely is made of pure metal, which gives the whole vignette something of very special weight ... sorry ... this is just a side note ... By all accounts Master Tree, some of the MB 279s were in resin.
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Post by Gildor on Aug 3, 2011 6:15:20 GMT
Milo MB279 is in resin, and myself too is in resin... never seen it in metal...
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Post by Thingol on Aug 3, 2011 8:29:58 GMT
My MB279 base is also cast in metal... !?!?!?
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Post by Thingol on Aug 3, 2011 8:43:23 GMT
.... and about casting in resin... I'm not for this solution... but if with this move prices for regular M releases would be affordable ( not MS, MX, MB etc stays in metal ).... a few coins of euros each ( on GW site 20 Uruk-hai 20,50 GBP ) .... why not... if casting will stay in metal and in small quantities.... we have to discuss about prices... as we are few very, very loyal customers...
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