Gothy'

[ddaines]

A spirited defence of this month's worthy winner Barley, we could argue the merits of the rank of Lieutenant over many a flagon of scrumpy at your establishment (but please filter out the straw and other crunchy bits first), not since the days of the evil brew being served in the Minerva hostlery in Plymouth have I drunk the potent brew with vigour.

Shall we agree to 'Gothy's rank of Lieutenant being of somewhat higher status and prestige more akin to 'the days of yore' in which this tale is set rather than the rank of the Lieutenant of more recent times which is of a junior officer (or a failed one if still of that rank after many years service).

As a former long-serving member of Her Majesties..., a Lieutenant is a figure-head figure in charge of a troop or platoon of soldiers, who if he is going to be any good will actually be following the advice and guidance of his Senior Non-Commissioned Officers, i.e. his sergeant and corporals, taking the blame when it goes wrong and the credit (and medals) when it goes right!

The OED is perhaps to 'black and white' in its description.

HOWEVER Barley, I did make the comments in the post WITHOUT refering to the passage in the book which states that he, Gothmog, ordered the remainder of the Morgul army into the fray, and therefore must have been a field officer and not as incorrectly suggested a R.E.M.F.

On that basis, yes a mounted, armoured, weapon-weilding fiend should look good when Chris has finished with him.

I hope the matter is cleared to everyone's satisfaction. A worthy winner in any case.

p.s. depending on which arm of service we are talking about a Quartermaster is usually a captain or a major.

[barliman]

...or a sergeant.

But I should point out immediately that Gothy was never my suggestion! - I merely championed his cause - rather loudly. He was, of course, Axel's idea. If If I'd put him up he'd only have garnered two votes at best... like Eorl will again this month no doubt!

[aelfwine]

Uhm, Lieutenant to me is not so much a modern military rank, but something closer to a deputy. Hence in Canadian provinces, we have Lieutenant Governers, whose job it is to represent the Queen.

So Gothmog is, to me at least, The Witch King's Second in Command.

And we'll get an Eorl model yet, barliman! oh yes!

Gavin

[ddaines]

That's what I mean - the Lieutenant (rank) I think may have been taken too literally as a 'junior' rank. And as you point out Gavin, Lt. Governors, Lords Lt. etc. all exist and hold positions of high esteem.

I actually jumped in without reading the passage decribing Gothmogs actions at the battle, a bit like ordering a flagon of scrumpy without checking I had enough gold in me purse! And a bit like Barli, I was doing a bit for Arathorn cos I think that would look real cool as a miniature.

I think Gothy will fill a gap as well AND Barli, keep plugging for Eorl he will ride down from the North eventually!

[Axel]

Lieu tenant, is historically the name given to the person who is acting in absence of the liege (tenant) as ruler of an estate, and later as commander of the forces a liegeholder has to send to the muster. The latter produced some professionals who were much better in commanding these mustered troops then the part-time noble warriors, who were good figthers but bad commanders. This way the "lieutenant" became a military rank over the centuries.

So his "rank" is actually just saying that Gothmog is acting ruler of Morgul in the absence of the Nazgul, in all probability the highest ranking "living" servant in Morgul

[ddaines]

That'll do for me!